Phil Rickaby
Welcome to Episode Two of Stageworthy podcast I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. On Stageworthy I interview people who make theatre from actors to directors to playwrights to stage managers and more. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook and Twitter @stageworthypod and you can find a website at stageworthypodcast.com. If you like what you hear, I hope you’ll subscribe on iTunes or whatever podcast app you use and consider leaving a comment or rating.

My guest today is Sam Rosenthal and he joined me to talk about the Hogtown Experience, an immersive theatrical experience playing for one week to the end of January at Toronto’s Campbell host as well as his experience in the recent Montreal production of the apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz. This is unfortunately a shorter episode than I’d rather since we were recording this in the Campbell house, and they started closing up about 25 minutes in, you’ll hear the curator come and tell us He’s closing up in fact. check out hogtown at hogtown experienced calm and it hogtown live on Twitter and Instagram.

First question that I want to ask. You’re working on hogtown live.

Sam Rosenthal
That’s right. We call the hogtown- Hogtown experience.

Phil Rickaby
Ok. Hogtown Experience. which is an immersive theatrical performance?

What was your like what made you want to explore this kind of immersive theatre as something you wanted to do?

Sam Rosenthal
My first experience with it, I credit the inspiration fully on the shoulders of sleep no more. And I make no bones about saying that I’d never experienced immersive Theatre of this nature went there three years ago, was so taken with not only their performance, the idea, but also the experience stayed with me for like, a year and a half after. And I left thinking Wouldn’t it be great if we could do something like that in Toronto? And then my next question is, well, well, how do you make it how do you take someone else’s amazing idea be inspired by it, but then make it your own? Yeah, but that’s so that’s where it came from. And then followed up with you know, getting this little green book from my father, saying, This is what your grandfather and grandmother This is an organisation they belong to, and he had me this book, and it was actually from an organisation That shall remain nameless, because it’s basically like a stonemasons organisation. And we don’t use their secrets, but the template of who they are, what’s that about fascinated me? Right? So I started to think, what would it be like if you could experience that, you know, in a safe environment, which led me to then start thinking about, Well, wait a second, you know, this is a book from 1928. Now, let’s see, you know, I love prohibition. I love the 20s. And I sat down with all of this in my head thinking there’s something here and for the last year and a half, myself and my co writer drew Karn with sat down and started creating an experience it you know, that would take place in one venue that you could essentially be a ghost and walk through and see what it would be like like to be in this in our case now on this show in a speakeasy in 1920s. Toronto. Add to that fact. Okay, that’s all interesting. I said to myself, but what makes it Toronto? What makes it hogtown? Well, let’s make it about the actual election that took place in 1926. Let’s, let’s put historical figures in there. We put our own spin on it. Yeah. But you know, who was the mayor in 1926? You know, let’s let’s see the genesis of where the TTC and the CNE Where did these ideas come from? And that’s so that’s the genesis of where that all came from.

Phil Rickaby
The election. At that time was that one New Year’s Day

Sam Rosenthal
that happened on New Year’s Day and it happened between Thomas foster who, who was the current mayor at the time, and he was running up against the incumbent Sam McBride. And without giving anything away, it’s all historical fact. Sam McBride loses by 3000 votes that he But it’s coming by 3000 votes I still pretty close. Yeah.

But what’s interesting to me about those two guys is you have the sort of Rob Ford at the time without the

other issues that he’s famous for when I mean the ROB port, I mean the you know, let’s let’s clamp down let’s Penny pinch let’s you know, and versus the other, the other Let’s spend, let’s grow, let’s build this town. And so what was relevant today was definitely you know, happening back then as well. So

Phil Rickaby
So is it is the set the timeframe is that New Year’s Eve?

Sam Rosenthal
Yes. So when you arrive at the Campbell house, you’re coming into a speakeasy on on New Year’s Eve, the night before the election, and you’re entering a what essentially is a pre election party for Sam McBride, who is feeling pretty confident he’s going to win the next day. And and this is his story. Big, you know, come on let’s let’s let’s what, let’s have a great bash on on New Year’s Eve complications into. And when Thomas foster the current mayor decides to crash the party as well, because all the biggest names in town are here. Yeah. And that’s when things get fun to get interesting. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
So how I mean, as somebody who’s writing who writes plays and things like that, how do you approach writing something as immersive as this when there’s there isn’t a stage, per se, there’s not one spot where people can focus. So how do you approach the writing of funding?

Sam Rosenthal
So, full disclosure since this is my first immersive piece? What we did was we looked at each room in the house as a stage. So you know what happens in what we call the get the adult games room. All, all the characters that enter all the things that happen in that space, let’s look at that as one stage. And we did that with all the other six playing areas in the house. And of course, the challenge then becomes, so if one character is downstairs in this scene, and you need him upstairs for 20 minutes later, right, it starts to become a sort of game of Jenga and jigsaw, how do you so we made a big chart, and we start, you know, we wrote 34 storylines for 34 characters, and how they interacted and then just over the year started putting it together. Hmm. And it really is. It’s quite challenging because sometimes you found yourself creating something for a character to do, just for the sake of having that character do something in our earlier drafts, and that’s when we got into trouble and my co writer would call me on it and say, Well, what, what’s driving this character Ford what’s interesting about this moment? Yeah, you know, and and and I had to throw my hands up and say you’re right, and we had to go back then and say, you know, this character is pursuing this and that. And then all of a sudden some things really started to click, you know, for example, the mayor’s wife, who is based on a certain mayor, which I won’t say my lassman who is who’s, you know, who’s whose wife was notorious for her parting ways, let’s say. And so we have a character in the show who, who has the same proclivity for alcohol. Now, what’s what’s interesting about watching someone who may be a become an abbreviated Well, I think at this point in all of our lives, probably nothing much unless she’s got something really interesting and honest to say, and the alcohol or the honesty comes through that. That’s what I find interesting, not an actor stumbling around playing drunk, but someone who’s unafraid to say But they feel the alcohol just happens to bring that out. So it was those kind of things as opposed to me saying, well, let’s have this actor drink. What? Why? Yeah, let’s have her start to release what she’s been holding in for a year as her husband has been, you know, going through this campaign. And so it’s it’s really been an interesting journey. And as I mentioned to you before we started the interview, you know, you’ve come today and today was the first time we hit print on the computer and outcome all these scenes. And you know, the script is 200 pages. And you know, handing it to the stage management team today. There’s four of them on saying no good luck helped me schedule this. I mean, it’s, well that

Phil Rickaby
I mean, I guess you know, it’s 200 pages because it’s not linear. It’s like right, so many things like that can be seen there seems going on on the seat. Absolutely. It’s not 200 hours of stuff. Well, it’s 200 hours of stuff, but you couldn’t Possibly see it all.

Sam Rosenthal
right? You know you and you can’t. And even though we’ve done some interesting things to make sure that you’re going to see a good chunk of it, that you would have to come back several times to catch all the stories, you can’t see everything in one go more like that.

Phil Rickaby
Isn’t sleep no more like that? people go back multiple times to see it all

Sam Rosenthal
Very much. And one of the things that I was overwhelmed with when I went to New York is seeing the lineup of the people who are going to see the show in the demo demographic was 20 to 35. And they were dropping $120 us to see the show. And when I talked to some of these younger folks in line, they’d seen it three or four times. Now that could be the future of theatre here in Toronto, that could revolutionise how the younger generation see theatre, right, because we talked about that. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, one of the major questions that people in theatre have his hand wringing about the future of our audience and things like that. I’ve heard lots of conversations there was a, a town hall sort of thing last winter, all kinds of people from all kinds of spots and independent theatre, talking about where’s the audience? Do you? Do you think that the the traditional type of theatre is interesting to the 20 to 30 demographic or is is looking for something different?

Sam Rosenthal
No, I wouldn’t sell them. I wouldn’t sell them short. And I and I know that the the theatre that I grew up with that I know that you grew up with to is still very much alive and well in certain communities and cities. But I think that there has to be like the iPads and iPhones we have, there has to be new options for theatre and I think that’s what I’m what I’m saying is that people want a more visceral experience. And I’m not saying suggesting that you can’t get that from a typical stage performance. But I’m saying that what I want to do is take a couple of wires and sort of supercharge the battery here in Toronto and say, Okay, great. And how about this?

Phil Rickaby
Well, it’s interesting. I can only think of times when I’ve seen something on a traditional stage that was really visceral. So it’s interesting to think about how, how a completely immersive style of theatre might work. Now, there may be people who aren’t familiar with the Sleep no more. Yeah, also was it Huber did their

Sam Rosenthal
brandwood

Phil Rickaby
Brantwood last year which I didn’t get to see

Sam Rosenthal
saw it twice.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, that was lots of people were

Sam Rosenthal
spectacular, spectacular.

Phil Rickaby
What is this kind of this kind of theatre.

Sam Rosenthal
So it’s the kind of theatre where forget about the notion of coming in and sitting down and watching and that’s why I use the term being a ghost. It is about going To an environment, whether it’s under a bridge or in a house, and you begin to walk the rooms of the house, and there will be people there, there will be scenes happening. There will be conversations happening, you’ll walk into a room and two actors, three actors, for actors will be having a conversation. And the way it is staged, it’s obviously a little more than a conversation. It’s a dramatic scene. And you were going to you were going to be welcomed and invited to to listen and and see what’s happening. way that I would say it becomes immersive. Someone could say to me, Well, it sounds like I’ll just sit on the side of the room and watch the conversation. What’s the difference? The differences is that an actor could turn to you. And, you know, go over and speak with you could take your hand and ask you to join the conversation, to rest to put the fears of the audience at rest. This isn’t a Murder Mystery where you’re then going to have to, as an audience come up with clever conversation. What we do to allay the fears of the audiences, we established the rules at the top and saying, you don’t need to speak this is about you experiencing. So what that means is that you can just sit in silence and, and and become part of the conversation. That means that two politicians could be having a heated conversation and all of a sudden, you’re the advisor, meaning you know, you’re a silent advisor and 111 actor has his hand on your shoulder. If you have two really great actors in a really well written scene, having this conversation, only thing I can describe is that you as the audience member feel like you’re there with them, you’re part of that conversation. And I guess that’s what I mean by immersive. For example, in the games room without giving too much away. It’s a room where, you know, the still is because it’s a speakeasy. It’s a room where the rumrunners are and there are different You know, there’s a craps game that happens in there. And as an audience member, you could stand at that craps table, which is dice, by the way, if you’re not a gambler like myself, and you could take part in that game, and you could take part in it, what does that mean? from there? You have to come to the show and find out but you’re definitely not a bystander in the show.

Phil Rickaby
So no point it’s not like you are you’re not a passive participant. I mean, you could you could be you could be you could also find your way into the action.

Sam Rosenthal
Yeah. If you if you choose. And again, it’s not about how clever Do you have to be with come back? It’s not about the audience talking. It’s about you being emotionally invested. There’s, you know, in the, the Northern Light, that’s my, when I refer to the stone masons, that’s the group that’s our group, we call it the Northern Light. And they’re going to, you know, if you’re brave enough to step in that room, you’re going to go through some rituals, and you’re going to be an active participant in those, you know, you know, again, this isn’t a haunted house or not dipping your hands and cabbage and doing silly things. It’s actual, emotional and visceral, a journey that I want the audience to take, you know. And so we’ve tried that a number of interesting ways. And, you know, if you’re my father, for example, who’s 85 years old, who perhaps doesn’t want to wander into every room, we also have a white hot 1920s jazz band, that someone could just sit in the speakeasy and listen to the band. Yeah, you know, maybe someone doesn’t want to wander the house. I just want to experience the period, right? Because we are in this beautiful this house that was built in 1822. Yeah, you know. So I think that, as I hear myself ramble on about what it means to be an immersive experience, you really have to come and experience it for yourself. And and good luck and I say that tongue in cheek to the audience members who do because you’re going to have to cross the line of temperates women who are marching up and down the fence and they’re going to give you grief for coming in and drinking because Don’t forget prohibition in Ontario ends in 1927. So we’re just at the end of it so that’s also an interesting time where prohibition was in force. And and people really believe that you know, you shouldn’t be drinking.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah.

So of course something like this, this this can’t be

like this. You obviously have a team of people. Both your co writer You said you have four stage managers

Sam Rosenthal
four stage managers young cast is how big 34 cast members 34 cast Yeah, and and and a band of the fantastic Jenny Burke, Michael Barber, and Bobby, too, and I hope I’m saying your name right Bobby who’s playing on the sax and, and they’re going to be burning up the joint and a couple of amazing flappers. So the full experience, I’ve called in favours I’m not gonna lie. I’ve worked with most of these people over the course of my life. This is an equity Collective. And I would say we’re not going to use the word workshop because a collective can’t be a workshop. But so it’s not a workshop, we’ll call it a phase one of what we hope will be a permanent ongoing show here at the Campbell house. That’s the goal.

Phil Rickaby
That’s that’s to be able to just sort of like, because you’re only this is only like a week, it’s a

Sam Rosenthal
five day sort of, how are we doing Toronto? How does this feel for you? And what I’m hoping is that most people will say, this was spectacular. We want more, and if they do, there’s an opportunity here to run this all summer long for every summer thereafter. And that’s that’s the dream. That’s kind of exciting. I think so I mean, I think Listen, that you know, in the summer, that’s a full fledged production where all hands on deck need to be fully compensated as everybody should be. So the goal is, how do you do that? How do you get it Cast have that many being you know an answer is you better do something great inspire people and and get grants and you know

Phil Rickaby
and see what you can do so exciting The exciting thing of of having like this this short trial is the kind of thing that people can see and feel and they want more right there’s more opportunity to sort of like show it off and get people interested in fact as

Sam Rosenthal
well that’s right and and you know what I’m hoping in the summer is what I wanted to do for the the this production in January, but I can’t is the show is written to start on a streetcar that you would get on a streetcar down to Queen of coxwell as an audience member and as you come across the actor start boarding the car and the show begins close out their front of Campbell house and in the economy.

Phil Rickaby
Right to ride. Yeah, and meeting people even before the ride.

Sam Rosenthal
So you’re you’re really part of The show right from the beginning, you know, but that’s a partnership. I have to work with the TTC, the old streetcars, you can rent them, right? So these are things that we we this is just the tip of the iceberg for this experience, right?

Phil Rickaby
In terms of these these 34 people with a 200 page script that’s that’s quite the rehearsal agenda in the job to rehearse. are you hoping that the stage managers can help you figure how to

Sam Rosenthal
the stage managers are thankfully that the images of what I want are so clear, not how the actors are going to act. That’s the journey but the stage pictures of what I see in each room are so clear that I’m hoping with the talented actors we have that yes, if the stage managers helped me organise the rehearsal schedule, the actors aren’t gonna have tonnes of time it’s only a two week rehearsal period, right. So, but they also don’t have pie And piles of lines again part of the immersive experience, you could go into a room and watch our woman doctor, play by the very talented Laurie Nancy Kaminski. And you could just watch her prepare a procedure that she’s going to do. Right and again, without giving too much away, just to watch someone at night. What’s a woman? Dr. 1926? Right, what is she? What does she carry? What does she do? And just even watching that experience, you know, so, in other words, the actors are gonna have to bring a lot to this. It’s not about you know, trying to rehearse a Shakespeare play where lines themselves become the issue. It’s more of the sense of who they are in the space.

Phil Rickaby
There’s also I mean, there’s also the the audience interaction is not necessarily something you can don’t know what the audience is going to say. So you have to be a little bit flexible with being able to respond to them.

Sam Rosenthal
Absolutely. And I can only build in so much in the scenes. It’s not about blocking up the ucross here well You could be in a room with 30 people would be able to cry. Right? So it’s about telling the actors, you know, helping them with. What are you going after in this scene? Really? What What is your intention here? What do you need to get done before your 15 minute scene is up? And how can you How can you play it with 20 people milling about in the room watching?

Phil Rickaby
You know, you mentioned to me earlier, and that was about somebody downstairs who’s got to be upstairs.

Sam Rosenthal
Yep, like 10 minutes.

Phil Rickaby
How does that person even know that? They what time it is?

Sam Rosenthal
Well, your listeners can’t see this due to the joy of radio, but I can tell you I’m holding what I call the hogtown character timeline. So for example, I’m holding Tommy Burt and he was the team captain of the ostlers. If I’m saying that correctly, they were the baseball team before the Toronto Maple Leafs. Now for Tommy Burt, the the the character of Tommy Burke. We’ve actually written out in 15 minute increments where he is so an actor I’m holding a sheet that basically says from seven to 715. He’s here and then 715 to 730. So if I’m an actor, I’m starting with this template to say, right, I’m going to be in the upper ballroom at eight o’clock, I’m going to be down to the games room. So we’re building timelines. That’s that’s one way to not overwhelm actors to say, here’s where you are overall. Now, they’re not walking around with stopwatches. Yeah, so we have we’ve introduced a lot of music in the show. And so music plays a big role in time. Right. So you’ll hear a lot of wonderful ukulele playing and there’s a lot of signals in the houses for the actress. No better move on to the next scene.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Oh, that’s, that’s interesting. That’s very clever. Yeah.

Can we leave I want to leave hogtown for sure you’d like to talk about Duddy Kravitz.

Sam Rosenthal
Sure.

Phil Rickaby
And you were In the was the world premiere.

Sam Rosenthal
It was the it was the world premiere of this new version, a version that that had been done.

The same team had done this 20 years ago, 30 years ago. And but this one now, this version that I did had Alan Menken writing the music. So the music was different, the script was also changed. And so of this particular form, yes, this was the world premiere. And as an actor, it was probably one of the best experiences of my life, because I got to work with Austin Pendleton, who,you know, I was completely intimidated by this director from New York and this actor who I admired, who ended up being a sweet, gentle, wonderful man filled with passion and intelligence and all of us would go to the wall for him. That’s and the experience is beautiful and and they were so clever to do it in Montreal because the audience is there. It was their story they were watching their story on stage about growing up in for those who don’t know the story but a young man growing up in the Montreal suburbs and and what what an incredible experience and the seagull centre What a great theatre I’d never worked there before. And they and they have a wonderful production team and it’s, it was extraordinary.

Phil Rickaby
Did you find that I mean, the audience obviously was very invested in the story. Do you did was it that they were familiar with the story or just happy to see their story?

Sam Rosenthal
I would say that most were familiar with it. But But I would, but what I saw from the wings when I would peek out is is the pride of that’s our story. You know, that’s me as a kid growing up in this town. You No. And and I think that some of the music that Alan Menken wrote was just immediately just made you weep to listen to you know that the younger cast members would tease me as I would stand and watch some of these beautiful songs that my fellows would sing on stage. And I would literally cry every night. And watch, you know, some of these songs because it was beautiful, you know, it moved me. It moved me because of what the story was, but also because, you know, I’m, I was playing a middle aged Jewish businessman, so, you know, playing part of who I am, and it had a lot to say, often good and often bad about people in business. And so it was a great journey. It was a very, very cool journey.

Phil Rickaby
Is there anything that you can point to that you learned through Production of products that you didn’t know before.

Sam Rosenthal
I think I learned I’m modelling my directing behaviour funny enough on what I learned from dirty Kravitz in Austin Pendleton, which is walk softly, but actually carry, don’t even carry a stick. Carry that love and grace in your heart and your actors will really respect you. I, I just I just learned that. And I also learned that you don’t have to have all the answers as the director right away. There was times when Austin was building a scene. And, you know, the stage management team would say, you know, Austin, you’ve left that table on from the scene before and that chair and Austin would say, I know, I know. And they say, well, don’t you want us to move it out? And he would say stop thinking so, you know, in this, you know, naturalistic fashion. He said, I don’t know what’s going to happen to that table, leave it and then you’d have the ghost of the Mother appeared a week later on that table. And we’d say, What? Where did you come up with that? And he would say, I don’t know, I don’t have all the answers. And I thought, okay, so so you don’t have to know everything. You have to have a vision. But I learned from him to just have faith in the actors, have faith in your crew, and just have faith and how things develop, which maybe is a younger director and someone who’s still learning. I would need to do more, as opposed to I need this right now today. You know, that’s interesting. I think there’s a lot of cases where directors are

Phil Rickaby
finding that they think they have to know everything. And what do you do when you don’t know or you struggle to find it? Maybe it doesn’t work, when everybody’s actually doing it. I used to work with a director years ago who worked out everything on paper before you may start rehearsal and then you get to this point in rehearsal, where it wasn’t working for the act. And he’d be like, I don’t know, what’s wrong with you works on the paper and has to work here.

Sam Rosenthal
Yeah. And that’s and that’s, I think, something that I did when I came out of directing from York thinking that won’t the actress think I’m a professional with all my papers in front of me. And then of course, as you get older, you learn that you know what actors think you’re a professional by you acting like one, which really means to me being present for the actors in the room, what do they need to make the scene work and putting aside your preconceived notions of the scene because they’re individuals bringing you Yeah, bringing you bringing you and as an actor, if someone’s directing me, I want guidance, so that but I also want to give them options, you know,

Phil Rickaby
you want to bring what you bring to the table,

Sam Rosenthal
and it’s invaluable because I think the biggest thing I learned from Diddy Kravitz was that, you know, when you’re working on a new show, you’ve got to be open to everything. thing and this is the year of that I’m going to do a show at the elegant theatre this year. My first time stepping on that stage, I’m doing a show called dancer, okay, being produced by Marlene Smith, and it’s about the story of Northern dancer. Okay. And and, you know, without really talking about the show, I can just say that it’s it’s an incredible, incredible story. And it’s a large cast. And, you know, it’s going to be done like goodie in terms of have faith with, with all the new things that are coming up before you I just say to myself, It’s the Year of world premieres, and I guess hogtown will fit into that somehow.

Phil Rickaby
Do you find that stage but intimidating is that like it’s a big stage? It’s a famous stage.

Sam Rosenthal
Oh, I I’m, you know, I’m talking about it. Like the little boy that I am inside going, Wow, do I really get to step on there? Yeah. And it’s and it’s a musical And, you know, yeah, it is intimidating. But But I think, again, you stick to what you’re doing in the moment on stage. And I learned that that, you know, talking with you or talking before with people, you can have that off. And then you get into rehearsal, like with some of the other actors I’m with, which I can’t talk about now. But there’s some really big people in this show that I’m with. And I’m looking around going, Wow, I get to work with that actor and that actor, but when you get into rehearsal, then it’s just about, you know, it’s just work. It’s just work, right? Yeah. I find

Phil Rickaby
there’s something about the

Sam Rosenthal
Yeah, I’m just starting,

Unknown Speaker
but because it’s such a big house and takes me time to shut down the stairs. Because last time, I was sick. Oh,

Phil Rickaby
thank you. We’ll be wrapping up in a couple of minutes. Thank you, um, in terms of

like, I don’t have a clue but but I’ve often had that experience that even if I know Not working on that stage. There’s the feeling of like what happens when you get on that stage? Yeah, for the first time, there’s that ah, I think it probably draws us all to the stage of course. Yeah.

Now, this building the rendering Campbell house, right, that’s right. For Where? See some props, I think probably for for hogtown. What I mean, obviously, the The setting is just just perfect for, for for hogtown. Is there anything Aside from that, that really drew you to this building as a as a venue.

Sam Rosenthal
I just what I really loved about it was that the rooms are so different. So so you know what we’re sitting in here in the room called the Robin net, where the bar is going to be with wood flooring, and it’s perfect for a small intimate cabaret. And then you go across and look across and there’s what they call the kitchenette. The old kitchen with a stone floor. And big fireplace and a ballroom upstairs. So it was just a venue with the soul, so many different rooms in the style, the period that we needed that that really drew me to it, you know, and the ability to have it on different floors is really important. Jared

Phil Rickaby
is really, you know, yeah people to be able to, to move and to have one scene happen and not necessarily effects infect another

Sam Rosenthal
absolutely, absolutely

Phil Rickaby
what it takes for

Sam Rosenthal
hogtown opens on the 27th of January, and we close on the 31st it really is a short little week, and we’re sold out on on on Friday night already. And and we want to sell out obviously we hope to sell out the five days. So yeah, where can people get tickets, they can just go to hogtown experience. That’s all one word hogtown experience and and on there, there’ll be a link to get tickets. You can also type in Campbell house and go to the the threw the link through there. And it’s right online.

Phil Rickaby
Is there anything else that you’d like to say the show

Sam Rosenthal
just that we want, we want you to come. And we want you to be vocal about what you liked about the show and what you didn’t like. And I want and I’m looking forward to speaking with people after about their experience, because it’s going to be coming

Phil Rickaby
for a longer time. We should definitely talk before it happens in the summer. I’d love to talk more like a little bit longer, especially about what you’ve learned from the from this upcoming performance.

Sam Rosenthal
Oh, that would be I look forward to that conversation.

Phil Rickaby
So thank you. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Sam Rosenthal
Thanks so much.